Legislature(1995 - 1996)
02/09/1996 09:09 AM House RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
February 9, 1996
9:09 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Joe Green, Co-Chairman
Representative William K. "Bill" Williams, Co-Chairman
Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chairman
Representative Alan Austerman
Representative John Davies
Representative Pete Kott
Representative Irene Nicholia
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Barnes
Representative Long
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 313
"An Act relating to fees for big game tags for wolves; and
providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
WORK SESSION: AIR QUALITY PLAN REGULATIONS
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 313
SHORT TITLE: BIG GAME TAGS FOR WOLVES
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) OGAN
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
04/20/95 1399 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
04/20/95 1399 (H) RESOURCES, FINANCE
02/07/96 (H) RES AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
BO FORREST
Alaska Environmental Lobby
P. O. Box 22151
Juneau, AK 99801
Telephone: (907) 463-3366
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 313.
KEN TAYLOR, Deputy Director
Division of Wildlife Conservation
Department of Fish and Game
P. O. Box 240020
Douglas, AK 99824-0020
Telephone: (907) 465-4192
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 313.
LEONARD D. VERRELLI, Director
Division of Air & Water Quality
Department of Environmental Conservation
410 Willoughby Avenue, Suite 105
Juneau, AK 99801-1975
Telephone: (907) 465-5104
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on air quality plan regulations.
JOHN STONE, Chief
Air Quality Maintenance
Division of Air & Water Quality
410 Willoughby Avenue, Suite 105
Juneau, AK 99801-1975
Telephone: (907) 465-5103
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on air quality plan regulations.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 96-15, SIDE A
Number 000
CO-CHAIRMAN JOE GREEN called the House Resources Committee meeting
to order at 9:09 a.m. Members present at the call to order were
Representatives Green, Williams, Ogan, Austerman, Davies, and Kott.
Representatives Barnes, Long and Nicholia were absent.
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said the committee would hear HB 313 in addition
to the Department of Environmental Conservation presentation. The
DEC will explain what they have done to address the concerns of the
witnesses at the hearing on January 18, 1996.
HB 313 - BIG GAME TAGS FOR WOLVES
Number 100
BO FORREST, Volunteer, Alaska Environmental Lobby, testified that
in the short time of being in Alaska, he had witnessed some pretty
amazing arguments about what is best for the state of Alaska. He
said HB 313 is a real beauty.
MR. FORREST said he tried to identify a list of concerns aside from
giving away $42,000 of the state's money. He felt that HB 313 will
not affect the state's animal population one way or the other,
unless the tourist is considered an animal. He stated that this
bill might attract some wealthy trophy hunter from the outside to
tip his guide a bit more.
MR. FORREST said his interpretation of HB 313 is, "here hang on to
my wallet, while I blast off my other foot."
Number 275
KEN TAYLOR, Deputy Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation,
Alaska Department of Fish and Game, testified that HB 313 would
reduce the license fee for nonresidents and nonresident aliens.
Currently, there are about 10,000 nonresidents that hunt in Alaska
every year. Of these, about 250 will buy a wolf tag at the current
price. There are about 30 nonresident aliens that buy a wolf tag
every year. Of the 250 people with the tags, they harvest about 30
wolves a year.
MR. TAYLOR said, reducing the tag fee to $10 or $15 as stated in
this bill would probably stimulate some harvest. With the 10-15
percent of the people buying tags now, that would not be a serious
increase in the harvest. As far as its affect on populations, it
would have little or no affect and, probably, put more people in
the field hunting wolves.
Number 383
MR. TAYLOR said the reduction of the Fish and Game Fund by $42,000,
is not a large percentage. He said due to the short notice of the
hearing, he did not know the position of the department on HB 313.
But, he said the bill is fairly simple and straight forward, and he
does not see either a major wildlife concern or a major fiscal
concern.
Number 469
REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN remarked that he offered HB 313 as a
alternative way to manage wolves in the state. He said 10,000
nonresident hunters come to Alaska every year. Wolf tags are
expensive, and if we lowered the price, the incidental take of
wolves could significantly increase. There is no guarantee, but
the state has spent thousands and thousands of dollars on ill
conceived, and ineffective control programs. This concept would
allow the Board of Game to manage the level of harvest by adjusting
the seasons.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said his intent was to give the Board of Game
tools to help them manage wolf populations in certain areas. In
the areas where there are problems, they can set more liberal bag
limits and seasons, and more hunters in the field will be carrying
a wolf tag.
Number 623
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN felt that HB 313 is a cost effective way to
give the Board of Game an opportunity to manage wolves. He asked
for the committee's support in passing the bill.
Number 644
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN DAVIES said he appreciated the motivation in
trying to find a way to do intensive game management, with respect
to wolves, in a way that will be less controversial. He said for
that reason the proposal has merits, but, geographically, there is
no way to direct where takes occur. We could be taking wolves in
areas where there is no problem and we might be taking wolves where
populations are already low. He referred to testimony on SB 81 on
January 31, 1996.
Number 737
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES said his second concern was that the state
would be losing revenues while it encouraged people to hunt wolves
in an area where it did not make any difference.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES referred to Mr. Taylor's testimony that there
might only be minimal effect on the wolf populations: therefore,
the only affect of this bill would be the loss of revenue. He said
he cannot support HB 313 as it is currently written. He suggested
an alternative would be to reconstruct HB 313 so that it is
directed at the areas where the Board of Game has determined that
the state needs intensive harvest.
Number 795
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN countered that he felt HB 313 is not
indiscriminate because it does allow the Board of Game to set
seasons and bag limits. If there are areas where the board does
not want a lot of harvest, they simply tighten up the seasons and
the bag limits. It gives them an active management tool to place
seasons and bag limits according to what kind of pressure they want
on the animal.
Number 830
CO-CHAIRMAN BILL WILLIAMS stated that the bill still results in
loss of revenue and it, potentially, adds more management to an
issue the state is trying to cut back on.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said the cry he hears is that there is not
enough intensive management of wildlife.
Number 967
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Taylor to return to the table and
address this controversy.
MR. TAYLOR responded that it is difficult to say how much impact HB
313 would have if it were applied statewide. The legislature has
dealt with these issues previously for brown bear. For instance,
the legislature enacted a statute authorizing the board to waive
tag fees in areas where the board wanted to direct more pressure.
If that is a possibility for resolving the disagreement on the
committee, it might be something that you wish to consider.
MR. TAYLOR offered that a similar statute giving the board the
flexibility to waive nonresident tag fees entirely, in those areas
the board has identified for intensive management, might be more
directed toward the problem.
Number 1025
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if either case added to the administrative
requirements for the Department of Fish and Game.
MR. TAYLOR felt that the administrative requirements would not be
increased.
Number 1051
REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA said wolves are usually taken during
the winter. She pointed out that a lot of guiding activity takes
place during the moose and caribou hunting seasons. She asked Mr.
Taylor how much guiding activity occurs during the winter months.
Number 1111
MR. TAYLOR said guiding activity predominately occurs during the
fall season for moose, caribou and brown bear. Some clients will
buy a wolf tag on the off chance that they see a wolf out on their
hunt.
MR. TAYLOR said in the late 1980s and early 1990s, there was some
guiding activities exclusively for wolves during the wintertime in
Unit 13, the Nelchina Basin, and Unit 26(B), along the Haul Road at
Prudhoe Bay. He said that guiding activity is almost exclusively
done during the fall.
Number 1149
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked explanation of the incidental taking of
wolves.
MR. TAYLOR talked about Board of Game restrictions on wolf hunting.
He said a hunter cannot hunt the say day he is airborne. Almost
all wolf harvest is incidental while moose or caribou hunting.
Number 1196
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said HB 313 is designed to enhance incidental
take. He said he does not personally know of anyone who hunts
wolves in fall. He said there is very little pressure on the
wolves because of that. He discussed his experience on the guide
board.
Number 1305
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES remarked that if HB 313 could be modified so
that the reduction would be at the discretion of the Board of Game;
the state could then surgically direct any loss of revenue into an
area where there is a problem. He said, as the bill stands now,
it is too indiscriminate and he cannot support it.
Number 1348
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN expressed willingness to look at modifying HB
313. He suggested that the committee hold the bill for further
review.
Number 1363
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if the committee objected to holding the
bill. There were no objections.
Number 1381
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said the committee would hear from the Department
of Environmental Conservation concerning the controversial issues
that arose between the "permittees" and the ADEC during the House
Resources Committee meeting of January 18, 1996.
Number 1413
LEONARD D. VERRELLI, Director, Division of Air & Water Quality,
Department of Environmental Conservation came forward with JOHN
STONE, Chief, Air Quality Maintenance Section, Division of Air &
Water Quality, Department of Environmental Conservation.
Number 1437
MR. STONE reiterated that the Air Quality Maintenance Section is
responsible for maintaining primacy of permit programs in the state
of Alaska.
MR. VERRELLI referred to the DEC's packet and addressed a letter
from Steven A. Torok, Senior Representative, Environmental
Protection Agency with an attachment from EPA Region 10 responding
to the question of how more restrictive the state program may be
than the federal requirements. He said that letter, at least, from
the Environmental Protection Agency's point of view would suggest
that the Department's present program is less stringent than the
federal law. That is why we have such a long list of disapprovals.
MR. VERRELLI said the packet also included a letter dated January
18, 1996 listing 22 pages of deficiencies.
MR. VERRELLI said the DEC had received a FAX from Marilyn Crockett,
Alaska Oil and Gas Association, of a draft proposal as to how they
could work together to answer the Alaska Stakeholder's Coalition
questions and concerns along with EPA, in response to the hearing
of January 18, 1996.
MR. VERRELLI said the packet included a departmental letter to Ms.
Crockett addressing how the DEC felt it should conduct its process,
including the EPA, about what the disapproval meant and what the
DEC had to do immediately and what could be deferred long term.
The department is awaiting a response from Ms. Crockett.
Number 1539
MR. VERRELLI said the DEC review would cover some of the concerns
of the "coal fired" folks. He said a schedule of events is
attached.
Number 1585
MR. STONE recapped the Title V Permits Program status with the
Environmental Protection Agency.
A. A copy of EPA's February 8 letter to the ADEC which EPA states
that Alaska's Title V program does not meet the minimum federal
requirements.
B. A copy of EPA's January 18, 1996 list of deficiencies in
Alaska's Title V program.
C. Several deficiencies must be addressed before EPA can approve
Alaska's Title V program.
D. ADEC plans to propose regulation changes in Title V 18 AAC 50
next week to address these deficiencies, and accept public comment
for 30 days on the disapproval issues.
E. The remaining Title V deficiencies do not have to be addressed
before securing EPA approval of Alaska's Title V. program, however
they will be addressed by ADEC over the next year.
Number 1671
MR. STONE continued, recapping the Alaska Stakeholder's Coalition
(ASC) proposal.
A. The Alaska Stakeholder's Coalition submitted a proposal to ADEC
for addressing their concerns on January 26, 1996. (Enclosed)
B. A copy of Commissioner Brown's February 8 response to the ASC
proposal ADEC agreed to address ASC's concerns, however we can
not meet the tight schedule proposed by the ASC. The Open Meetings
Act notice requirements and the work that must be done to address
ASC's concerns and federal approval require more time than allowed
for in the ASC proposal. We have committed to work as quickly as
possible to address ASC's concerns.
C. The ADEC is awaiting a response from the ASC on Commissioner
Brown's counter proposal. If ASC agrees, we will hold a meeting as
quickly as possible, no later than the end of February.
D. In the first meeting, we plan to prioritize ASC's concerns,
schedule additional meetings and discuss how the meetings will
work.
Number 1728
MR. STONE continued, the Interior Coal-Burners Excess Emissions
Issue.
A. The Coal Burners Group have requested changes to Alaska's
emission standards so they can comply with the standards.
B. A copy of the DEC's August 25, 1995 letter to Kathryn Lamal of
GVEA describing how the coal burners could develop a new standard
for federal approval.
C. The December 4, 1995 Guide that describes how a member of the
public, including operators of permitted facilities, can request
changes to Alaska's federally-approved emission standards.
D. It is our understanding that the coal burners are determining
the extent of their noncompliance with the standards. This
analysis is a prerequisite to determining how to set a new
standard.
Number 1770
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Stone to keep him apprised of the
results of the counter proposal from the Alaska Stakeholder's
Coalition and other issues.
Number 1808
MR. STONE suggested that Chairman Green send a representative to
the first workshop meeting. He stressed the importance of having
a representative from the EPA present at the start because most of
the issues have to do with parts of Alaska's program that need
federal approval.
Number 1835
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES referred to the disapproval issues and asked
Mr. Stone if the changes in regulations were the proposed changes
on February 16, 1996.
Number 1864
MR. STONE said the ADEC's goal was to propose those changes this
next week; hold the public comment period and then hold the public
hearing. He said that time period was usually 30 days. He said
after receiving public input, it is analyzed, the DEC makes changes
and then sends it to the Department of Law for review. A several
month process from start to finish.
Number 1884
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked if there is a "drop dead" point, with
respect to EPA, where we have to have accomplished these changes in
regulations with respect to the issue of losing primacy.
Number 1897
MR. STONE responded that the EPA is in the process of promulgating
an alternative operating permit program. In discussions with them,
during the past two weeks, they have indicated that that program
will be promulgated in April. That would be the "drop dead" date.
Number 1922
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES wanted to know what the bureaucratic time lag
is from the time the program is submitted and reviewed and the EPA
makes its decision.
MR. STONE replied that the EPA, in the near future, would propose
a "disapproval alternate interim approval." The EPA will accept
comment on that approval option. In order to start that, we are
agreeing to work as quickly as we can under the state
administrative procedures to address the disapproval deficiencies.
As soon as we complete that, then they can publish an approval. As
soon as the DEC submits the final adopted regulations that have
been certified by the Department of Law, there is about a two year
delay in the federal register process. Then they will publish an
interim approval.
Number 1999
MR. VERRELLI said if the state is acting in good faith and moving
forward to meet their immediate goal, the state is usually given
the benefit of the doubt.
Number 2033
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked the department if they are reasonably
confident that if we go through this process, we will retain
primacy. The response was in the affirmative.
Number 2040
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN wanted to know if the department is getting
informal feedback from the EPA that yes, the state is moving in the
right direction.
Number 2057
MR. STONE replied that the department will try to involve the EPA
in all work group meetings so the DEC does not develop something
that the EPA will object to. Our intent is to have them actively
involved in all the options that we consider with the stakeholders.
Number 2073
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN commended the department for their progress
toward accomplishing the goals with the Alaska Stakeholder's
Coalition and the federal requirements. He assured the department
that if there is any trailing legislation, that it does not cast
any aspersions on the DEC, the state will have something as a
backfall.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business to come before the House Resources
Committee, Chairman Green adjourned the meeting at 9:50 a.m.
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